LoRa | Geolocation

  • 4 November 2016
  • 59 reacties
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59 reacties

Reputatie 7
Badge +11
@rharte thanks so much for your detailed explanation about Geolocation! 😃

@Gijs at this moment, we don't offer Geolocation test accounts anymore for the developer portal. This is because we are busy launching the feauture globally! You may expect to use it on the developer portal within a few weeks from now. This also applies for Thingpark, the subscription portal.
Reputatie 7
Badge +11
@rharte very well explained! I'm not sure yet about retreiving the location with only a empty data-payload. We will ask our specialists about this and come back at you.

@Gijs, I have to agree with @rharte on the LoRa Geolocation vs GPS. Only in a situation where you don't have a GPS signal at all, LoRa Geolocation might perform better. For all other situations, GPS would always be more precise.

Hello @Gabzz, I'm not sure if I understand your last question, could you explain the question? Would you like to know what happens if a new location can't be computed, the last known position will be sent?
Reputatie 2
Badge +1
Hi Michiel,

If i understand this correctly, then the location information is sent from the device itself (fields DevLat and DevLon) via the API message.

Do you know if geolocation by triangulation via the gateways on the roadmap? This would free up space on the payload and still deliver functional, correctly timed geolocation of the device.

Greetz,

Jeroen

Hi Jeroen,

No you do not understand this correctly 🙂. I see there is some confusion about this so I added a new paragraph "Geolocation by triangulation" to the TS. What I mean to say is that this is triangulation. The API message are added by the core server, not by the device. No extra effort on the device side is needed.

Does this make sense?

Michiel
"Tests are only available in a limited number of locations and only valid for stationary cases. Moving objects are not supported yet."

Can someone explain if this is still the case ? Why are moving objects not supported ? Any details ?

Thanks!

Why are moving objects not supported ?


Accuracy of the fine timestamps which are used for LoRa TDoA positioning is disappointing, and multipath propagation brings even more troubles. So you need a (huge) number of messages to feed the filter/solver with their ts and other metadata to get not-too-disasterous positioning accuracy.

Actually, that's why Actility had gave up and bought Abeeway which provides assisted GPS solutions.

Thanks for your reply!
Some more questions arised...
-Is this filter already implemented ?
-Is each calculated loacation indpendendly calculated from the timestamps? Or does it take into account previous locations?
-Are there algorithms implemented which assume the node is non moving ?
-What would be the best way to have location updates for moving objects ? Send 'frequently' on SF11 ?

Thanks!
Hi Michiel,

If i understand this correctly, then the location information is sent from the device itself (fields DevLat and DevLon) via the API message.

Do you know if geolocation by triangulation via the gateways on the roadmap? This would free up space on the payload and still deliver functional, correctly timed geolocation of the device.

Greetz,

Jeroen
Hi,

- How can I be provisioned with geolocation tests?
- What is the latest planning on the geolocation availability in the production environment?

Best regards,
Bert
Reputatie 1
Badge

Why are moving objects not supported ?


Accuracy of the fine timestamps which are used for LoRa TDoA positioning is disappointing, and multipath propagation brings even more troubles. So you need a (huge) number of messages to feed the filter/solver with their ts and other metadata to get not-too-disasterous positioning accuracy.

Actually, that's why Actility had gave up and bought Abeeway which provides assisted GPS solutions.
Reputatie 1
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However, if one gateway receives your signal quite strong, it will ask the device to tune down

Why do you think so?

BTW, a gateway typically is just unable to send a MAC command to a node, as it doesn't have access to NwkSKey.
Reputatie 1
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Hello

How can I test geo location fro the dev portal?

Cheers
Reputatie 1
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Hello Amine,

Do you have a contact at KPN for LoRa? Geolocation is as far as I know not yet accessible. If you're interested I can get you in touch to get access. Tests are only available in a limited number of locations and only valid for stationary cases.
Hi Tim. Please connect me with someone from KPN to test. Cheers!
Reputatie 1
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Ik wil wat metingen doen naar de nauwkeurigheid van LoRa geolocation onder diverse omstandigheden. Is er nog een verschil in te verwachten nauwkeurigheid tussen de developer portal en het productie Thingspark?

Tweede vraag: zijn er plekken in Nederland waar de verwachte nauwkeurigheid "bovengemiddels hoog" is?
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Hi @rharte

My sincere apologies!
We completely missed your question at the time 😱
I'm sorry to say that I don't have the answer right now. This means that I have to turn it back to the specialists. I will discuss this right away so I have an answer to the question as soon as possible.

To be continued!
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Goodmorning,

Thank you so much for the observation!
This clarifies the situation even more and helps a lot. This is also very usefull for other LoRA users.
As I look to your example I completely agree that it is strange that there is no DevEUI_location message send after the uplink message at 06:00. And it is even more strange that the uplink message from 08:00 refers to to an 06:00 position update! I'll put this through to the specialists, so they can look into it. I'm expecting this is a bug, but off course we need to be sure!
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Hi @rharte,

Can you please send me the DevEUI of the device which you used for above example?

You can send this in a private message.
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Goedemiddag @Kees DPD,

Wat goed om te lezen dat u gelijk bent gaan testen met Geolocation!
Natuurlijk help ik u graag en zoek ik graag uit hoe dit precies kan. Ik moet eerlijk zeggen dat ik het antwoord voor punt 1 verschuldigd moet blijven. Dit leg ik voor aan de specialisten om hier duidelijkheid in te krijgen.

Wat betreft punt 2 vermoed ik dat u inderdaad tijdelijk geblokkeerd wordt omdat u het limiet van aantal berichten overschrijdt. Op de Developer Portal is het in ieder geval zo dat u maximaal 3 berichten per uur mag versturen. Voor ThingPark werken we met een duty cycle die het limiet bepaald. Ik weet alleen niet precies voor hoelang de blokkade geldt. Ook dit leg ik natuurlijk gelijk voor aan de specialisten. Zodra ik antwoord heb geef ik natuurlijk direct een gil, Vermoedelijk wordt dit begin volgende week.

Ik wens u in ieder geval alvast een fijn weekend!
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Hi @Kees DPD,

Daar ben ik weer!
Inmiddels heb ik een terugkoppeling ontvangen op de vragen die ik uitgezet heb.
De terugkoppeling is als volgt:
  • In Thingpark is een schuivend window van 1 uur, dus als u om 13.15 uur iets heeft verstuurd, dan kan de volgende keer pas om 14.15 uur zijn
  • Het device heeft ook een interne duty cycle. Bent u hiervan op de hoogte?
  • M.b.t. Lelystad e.d., gebruikt u het device indoor of outdoor? In Lelystad zou namelijk gewoon Geolocatie moeten zijn.
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Goedemorgen @Kees DPD.

Bedankt voor uw reactie!
Er wordt geadviseerd om Geolocation alleen outdoor te gebruiken. Het blijft echter natuurlijk wel vreemd dat het Lelystad niet blijkt te werken. Ik maak daar zeker nog even een melding van bij de specialisten. Met de window van een uur wordt bedoeld dat er minimaal een uur tussen het versturen van berichten moet zitten.
Reputatie 7
Badge +6
Hi @Corne van Strien,

Wij willen graag uw specifieke situatie verder onderzoeken om tot een verklaring en oplossing te komen.
Wilt u mij aub de DevEUI van het device dat u gebruikt sturen?

Dit kan eventueel in een privébericht als u het liever niet openbaar post.
Hi,

While looking through my LoRa Data I noticed the "LrnDevEui" of an uplink messages is in capital letters and the "LrnDevEui" of a location message is not. This caused some unexpected problems while sorting my data by "LrnDevEui".

Are you aware of this difference and is there any reason for it?

Thanks in advance, I hope this will be changed in the near future.

Jan
Hi @Tim,

Here is a location type message:

code:
{
"Token": "04cc6dbfe61991208d58b9537b66c263befbe48ef605150733eb506e5a0278e8",
"LrnFPort": "0",
"DevEUI_location": {
"DevAltRadius": "0.000000",
"DevEUI": "0059AC00001830C8",
"DevAddr": "15293375",
"DevLON": "5.411983",
"DevLAT": "51.479717",
"DevAcc": "0.000000",
"Time": "2017-03-31T12:24:49.0+02:00",
"NxGeolocAlgo": "0",
"NwGeolocTdoaOpt": "0",
"DevAlt": "0.000000",
"DevLocTime": "2017-03-31T12:24:49.0+02:00",
"DevLocRadius": "0.000000",
"CustomerID": "100006334",
"Lrcid": "0059AC01"
},
"timeReceived": "2017-03-31T10:24:49Z",
"Time": "2017-03-31T12:24:49.61+02:00",
"LrnInfos": "TWA_100006334.683.AS-1-33061",
"LrnDevEui": "0059ac00001830c8",
"AS_ID": "asidsalvo"
}


And here the normal one:

code:
{
"Token": "df0bee9e60bbfd47e3f527be1c3cf739351ce4bd223ee69688cba547722bc6a4",
"LrnFPort": "4",
"DevEUI_uplink": {
"AckRequested": "1",
"DevLrrCnt": "6",
"rawMacCommands": "",
"Late": "0",
"ADRbit": "1",
"LrrLON": "5.440173",
"payload_hex": "00346b3a03c814af1e9500480900000000",
"Channel": "LC7",
"FPort": "4",
"DevAddr": "15293375",
"CustomerData": {
"alr": {
"pro": "Nomadic",
"ver": "1"
}
},
"FCntDn": "11",
"CustomerID": "100006334",
"Lrcid": "0059AC01",
"LrrSNR": "0.000000",
"FCntUp": "11",
"mic_hex": "17a1e29c",
"MeanPER": "0.041866",
"Lrrid": "FF010328",
"DevEUI": "0059AC00001830C8",
"Time": "2017-03-31T12:24:48.314+02:00",
"ModelCfg": "0",
"LrrRSSI": "-111.000000",
"MType": "4",
"Lrrs": {
"Lrr": [{
"LrrSNR": "0.000000",
"Lrrid": "FF010328",
"LrrESP": "-114.010300",
"LrrRSSI": "-111.000000",
"Chain": "0"
}, {
"LrrSNR": "-12.000000",
"Lrrid": "FF010381",
"LrrESP": "-127.265724",
"LrrRSSI": "-115.000000",
"Chain": "0"
}, {
"LrrSNR": "-17.000000",
"Lrrid": "FF01047D",
"LrrESP": "-132.085800",
"LrrRSSI": "-115.000000",
"Chain": "0"
}]
},
"LrrLAT": "51.477493",
"SpFact": "12",
"InstantPER": "0.090909",
"SubBand": "G2"
},
"timeReceived": "2017-03-31T10:24:49Z",
"Time": "2017-03-31T12:24:49.60+02:00",
"LrnInfos": "TWA_100006334.683.AS-1-33058",
"LrnDevEui": "0059AC00001830C8",
"AS_ID": "asidsalvo"
}


I hope this will help!
Hallo,

Is er al helderheid over het probleem zoals gemeld door 'Kees DPD':

"1) Gebruik makende van ADP krijg ik niet, zoals verwacht, een 'DevEUI_uplink' optioneel gevolgd door een 'DevEUI_location'. maar vaak alleen een 'DevEUI_location' en af en toe een 'DevEUI_uplink'. Dus ik mis de payload data heel vaak... "

Ik ondervind hetzelfde issue, Super dat Geolocation nu ook in de developer portal beschikbaar is. Maar als je wel de locatie doorkrijgt maar niet de data dan is dat toch wat lastig 🙂.

Met vriendelijke groet, Corné
Hi Tim,

Could you help me get in touch with a KPN contact to get access and test Geolocation?

Many thanks

Gertjan
Reputatie 1
Badge +1
I have geolocation provisioned and sending with SF12 and ADR off as advised by KPN in this thread. I find that quite regular my signal is received by 3 or 4 gateways, but only occasionally the geo position is updated. I can send dozens of messages per day and still find that my calculated position may be two days old! Is my observation correct that there is not always a position update when a signal is received by 3 or more gateways? Or am I doing something wrong?
Reputatie 1
Badge +1
I have another question about geolocation: I guess for the best results and accuracy, it's beneficial if as much gateways receive your signal as possible. At least more than 3. However, if one gateway receives your signal quite strong, it will ask the device to tune down, meaning that less gateways will receive the signal, and the geolocation accuracy will deteriorate if at all enough gateways recieve the signal for a position determination. I guess in the long run KPN doesn't want any devices that ignore mac commands and keep sending at SF12 and max power to get the best geolocation results. How are these mechanisms planned to co-exist in a sort of optimum configuration?

Reageer